Махаси Саядо о Ниббане (выдержки из книг "Manual of Insight" и "On the nature of nibbana")

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Махаси Саядо о Ниббане (выдержка из книги "Manual of Insight")

Ниббана - это просто прекращение ментальных и физических феноменов, которое проявляется как не характеризуемое (animittapaccupanhanam) для благородного. Поэтому, хотя кто-то и испытал её, нельзя описать её с точки зрения цвета или формы или сказать, какова она. Её можно воспринимать или описывать только как прекращение или конец всех обусловленных ментальных и физических феноменов. В Milindapanha Khuddaka Nikaya это показано так:

О Великий Царь [Милинда], ниббана несравнима. Её нельзя описать по её цвету, форме, размеру, измерению, подобию, удаленной причине, непосредственной причине или любым другим логическим способом мышления.

Сказано, что ниббана - это прекращение, освобождение, не возникновение или не существование обусловленных феноменов. Также сказано, что ниббана не имеет цвета, формы или размера. Её невозможно описать с помощью сравнения. Из-за этих моментов можно подумать, что ниббана - это ничто, и подумать, что это то же самое, что концепция несуществования (abhavapannatti). Но это абсолютно не похоже на концепцию несуществования. Очевидно, что она имеет природу прекращения, освобождения, не возникновения или не существования обусловленных феноменов. И поскольку эта природа [ниббаны] очевидна, феномены пути и плода могут возникать при непосредственном переживании прекращения обусловленных феноменов. Ментальные и физические процессы араханта больше не возникают после того, как они вошли в париниббану; они полностью прекратились. Следующие тексты из Khuddaka Nikaya показывают, как природа ниббаны очевидна при непосредственном опыте.

«Монахи, есть нерождённое, ненаступившее, несотворённое, несформированное. Если бы не было этого нерождённого, ненаступившего, несотворённого, несформированного, то нельзя было распознать освобождение от рождённого, наступившего, сотворённого, сформированного. Но в точности потому, что есть нерождённое, ненаступившее, несотворённое, несформированное – можно распознать освобождение от рождённого, наступившего, сотворённого, сформированного».
—Itivuttaka

Поскольку в элементе ниббаны нет возникновения (что является прекращением обусловленных феноменов через их не-возникновение), он называется нерождённым (ajata) и ненаступившим (abhhuta). Поскольку он не вызван причинами и условиями, он называется несотворённым (akata). Поскольку он не зависит от причин и условий, он называется необусловленным. Если элемент ниббаны не существует, то прекращение умственных и физических процессов или совокупностей не могло бы произойти. Таким образом, неправда, что элемент ниббаны - это ничто, как концепция несуществования. Будучи объектом пути и плода, он является очевидным в окончательном смысле. И поскольку он является настолько очевидным, постоянно возникающие ментальные и физические процессы или совокупности в человеке, который практикует правильно, больше не возникают после париниббаны этого человека. Тогда они могут прекратиться навсегда. Это означает, что прекращение является чем-то, что может быть очевидным. Можете ли вы поверить в это!

«Монахи, есть сфера, где нет ни земли, ни воды, ни огня, ни ветра; ни сферы безграничного пространства, ни сферы безграничного сознания, ни сферы отсутствия чего бы то ни было, ни сферы ни восприятия, ни не-восприятия; ни этого мира, ни следующего мира, ни солнца, ни луны. И там, я говорю вам, нет ни появления, ни движения, ни пребывания; ни исчезновения, ни возникновения: [это] не утверждённое, не действующее, не имеющее опоры. Это и только это является окончанием страдания».
—Udana

Несуществование этих четырех элементов свидетельствует о несуществовании производных материальных феноменов (upadardupa) и о несуществовании ментальных феноменов, возникающих в смысле желания и тонкоматериальных существований, основанных на физических явлениях.

Нет объектов чувств, связанных с нематериальным существованием.
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Nibbana is simply the cessation of mental and physical phenomena that becomes manifest as the signless (animittapaccupanhanam) to a noble one. So although one has experienced it, one cannot describe it in terms of color or form or say what it is like. It can only be experienced or described as the cessation or end of all conditioned mental and physical phenomena. In the Milindapanha of the Khuddaka Nikaya, it is shown in this way:

O Great King [Milinda], nibbana is incomparable. It cannot be described in its color, shape, size, dimension, likeness, remote cause, immediate cause, or any other logical way of thinking.

Nibbana is said to be the cessation, liberation, non-arising, or nonexistence of conditioned phenomena. It is also said that nibbana has no color, form, or size. It cannot be described by using a simile. Because of these points one might believe that nibbana is nothing, and think that it is the same as the concept of nonexistence (abhavapannatti). But it is absolutely not like the concept of nonexistence. It is obvious that it has the nature of cessation, liberation, non-arising, or nonexistence of conditioned phenomena. And because this nature is obvious, the phenomena of path and fruition can arise while directly experiencing the cessation of conditioned phenomena. The mental and physical processes of an arahant do not arise anymore after they have entered parinibbana; they have completely ceased. The following texts from the Khuddaka Nikaya show how the nature of nibbana is obvious when directly experienced.

There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.
—Itivuttaka

Because there is no arising in the nibbana element [which is the cessation of conditioned phenomena through their non-arising], it is called not-born (ajata) and not-brought-to-being (abhhuta). Because it is not made by a cause, it is called not-made (akata). Because it is not made dependent on causes and conditions, it is called not-conditioned. If the nibbana element does not exist, then the cessation of the mental and physical processes or the aggregates could not happen. Thus it is not true that the nibbana element is nothing, like the concept of nonexistence. Being the object of path and fruition, it is obvious in an ultimate sense. And because it is so obvious, the constantly arising mental and physical processes or aggregates in a person who practices correctly do not arise anymore after that person’s parinibbana. Then, they are able to cease forever. It means that the cessation is something that can be obvious. May you believe this!

There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-nonperception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.
—Udana

The nonexistence of the four elements shows the nonexistence of the derived material phenomena (upadardupa), and the nonexistence of the mental phenomena that arise in the sense desire and fine-material existences based on physical phenomena.

There are no sense objects connected with the immaterial existence.

Тренер · Зарегистрирован: 06.03.2018 Суждений: 1796

Махаси Саядо о Ниббане (выдержка из книги "On the nature of nibbana")

Ниббана является счастьем
Преподобный Сарипутта имел обыкновение ликовать, говоря: «Братья! Воистину, ниббана - это счастье! Воистину, ниббана - это счастье! Преподобный Удайи не был удовлетворен этим утверждением, и поэтому он спросил: «Где в мире будет это счастье, когда в ниббане нет ни чувств, ни страстей?» Да, действительно, в ниббане нет чувства. Тогда где может быть счастье? Старший Удайи бросился туда, где ангелы боятся ступить, потому что он был глуп. Его прозвали Лалудайи-лалу, который стал термином для шутника. «В самом деле, - ответил Преподобный Сарипутта, - в ниббане нет ни чувства, ни страсти, и это отсутствие само по себе является счастьем». Есть два вида счастья, чувственное и нечувственное. Когда шесть чувственных объектов приносят удовлетворение или удовольствие, это называется ведайита сукха, счастье, полученное из чувств. В чувственном мире пять удовольствий ощущения зрения, слуха, вкуса, запаха и прикосновения считаются лучшими. Люди не хотят быть лишены этого. Те, кому нравится жевать бель или курить, не склонны жить в среде, где в этих удовольствиях отказано. Ненасытные люди не любят рождаться в мире брахм, где питание абсолютно не является необходимостью. В том мире нет никакого различия полов. Отсутствие сексуальности делает пять составляющих чувственных наслаждений излишними, но чувственные люди не любят это отсутствие. Там, где преобладают невежество и жажда, ниббана нежеланна, потому что ей не хватает чувственного удовольствия. Лалудайи был одним из тех, кто не любил ниббану. Преподобный Сарипутта должен был убедить его, сказав, что отсутствие чувства - это ниббана. Покой и счастье, не вытекающие из чувственных удовольствий, составляют аведайита сукха.

Различные этапы блаженства джхан
Таким образом, Ниббана является более возвышенным и благородным, чем блаженство джханы. Понимающие (проникающие ) медитирующие знают, что восторг и радость, переживаемые на этапе невозмутимости о формациях, намного превосходят те, которые переживаются на стадии познания возникновения и прекращения. Когда достигается плод Пути, испытываются наивысшие восторг и радость. Следовательно, мы говорим, что аведайита сукха намного превосходит ведайита сукха. Те, кто не может практиковать проникающую медитацию или джхану, могут оценить различные степени счастья, которые теперь перечислены, и прийти к выводу, что санти сукха является наивысшей. Они также могут осознать, что в сфере буддизма есть гораздо более высокие идеалы, в которые мы не можем легко вникнуть, и это может послужить толчком для стремления (усилий) после развития веры в Дхамму. Учения всех Будд говорят, что ниббана является наивысшей. Это прекращение всех чувств. В отсутствии чувства, мир и спокойствие господствуют в наивысшей степени. Все страдания, касающиеся старости, болезни, смерти и растворения, прекращаются. Поскольку она бессмертна, её блаженство неразрушимо. Таким образом, это наивысшее блаженство.
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Nibbāna is Happiness
Venerable Sāriputta used to exult, saying, “Brethren! Verily, nibbāna is happiness! Verily, nibbāna is happiness! Venerable Udāyī was not satisﬁed with this statement, and so he asked, “Where in the world will this happiness be, when in nibbāna one has neither feelings nor passions?” Yes, indeed, there is no feeling in nibbāna. Then where can happiness be? The elder Udāyī rushed in where angels fear to tread, because he was foolish. He was nicknamed Lāludāyī — lālu being a term for jester. “Indeed,” replied Venerable Sāriputta, “in nibbāna there is neither feeling nor passion, and this absence itself is happiness.” There are two kinds of happiness, sensual and non-sensual. When six sense-objects supply satisfaction or pleasure, it is called vedayita sukha, happiness derived from the senses. In the sensual world, the ﬁve pleasures of the sense of sight, hearing, taste, smell, and touch are regarded as the best. People do not like to be deprived of them. Those who like chewing betel or smoking are not well-disposed to living in an environment where these pleasures are denied. Gluttons do not like to be born in the world of brahmas where eating is absolutely unnecessary. In that world there is no diﬀerentiation of the sexes. Absence of sexuality makes the ﬁve constituents of sensual pleasures superﬂuous, but sensuous persons do not like that absence. Where ignorance and craving predominate, nibbāna is unwanted, for it lacks sensual pleasure. Lāḷudāyī was one of those not liking nibbāna. Venerable Sāripuyya had to admonish him saying that absence of feeling itself is nibbāna. Peace and happiness not derived from sensual pleasures constitute avedayita sukha.

Different Stages of Jhānic Bliss
Nibbāna is thus more sublime and nobler than jhāna bliss. Insight meditators know that the rapture and joy experienced at the stage of equanimity about formations far excels those experienced at the stage of knowledge of rising and passing. When the Fruition of the Path is accomplished, rapture and joy experienced are paramount. Hence we say avedayita sukha far excels vedayita sukha. Those who cannot practise insight meditation or jhāna may be able to appreciate the diﬀerent grades of happiness now enumerated and come to the conclusion that santi sukha is paramount. They may also realise that in the realm of Buddhism, there are far higher ideals that we cannot easily fathom, and this may serve as an impetus to strive after the development of faith in the Dhamma. The teachings of all the Buddhas say that nibbāna is paramount. It is the cessation of all feelings. In the absence of feeling, peace and calm reign supreme. All suﬀering relating to old age, disease, death and dissolution cease. As it is deathless, its bliss is indestructible. Thus it is the highest bliss.

empiriocritic_1900 · Зарегистрирован: 26.06.2017 Суждений: 8733

Очень кстати заведенная тема.

Итак, вот набор фрагментов из "On the nature of Nibbana" ( номера страниц - по этому изданию: http://www.aimwell.org/On%20the%20Nature%20of%20Nibbana.pdf ).

Фрагменты сгруппированы по тематическому принципу.

I Что такое Ниббана?

"Nibbāna means extinction or annihilation. What is extinguished or annihilated? The cycle of suffering in the realm of defilement (kilesa vaṭṭa), of action (kamma vaṭṭa), and the result of action (vipāka vaṭṭa) is extinguished or annihilated" – p.2

“Nibbāti vattadukkhaṃ etthāti nibbānaṃ; nibbāti vattadukkhaṃ etasmiṃ adhigateti va nibbānaṃ.” “In nibbāna, the cycle of suffering comes to a peaceful end. Hence cessation of suffering is nibbāna.” In other words, when the Path of Arahantship is reached, the cycle of suffering ceases. Nibbāna is thus the peace established with the annihilation of suffering. For the sake of brevity, please note only this — nibbāna is synonymous with absolute peace. Annihilation brings about complete elimination of the cycles of defilement, action, and the results of action. The Commentaries say that the state of peace (santi) is a characteristic of nibbāna. When this cooling occurs the embers of suffering are extinguished. What is to be noted with diligence is the complete annihilation of the three cycles of defilement, action, and result of action, which all go to create mind and matter, volitional activities, etc". – p.4

"The most important point to note is that the nature of nibbāna is the annihilation of all defilements. With the end of the cycle of defilements, no new becoming arises, and all is quiescence. Let me coin an aphorism for easy recollection. “Nibbāna is where the cycle of suffering ceases. Nibbāna is instrumental in bringing about the cessation of the cycle of suffering. The very nature of nibbāna is the cessation of cycle of suffering. ... Nibbāna is figuratively shown as the abode of cessation of all
suffering brought about by defilements. Its nature is also described metaphorically as the very element of quiescence, the result of cessation of suffering. In actuality, nibbāna is the very nature of the annihilation of all the three cycles of suffering". –p.14

"In the Milinda Pañhā, Venerable Nāgasena tells King Milinda that there is nothing that can be equated with nibbāna. It has no shape or form, no size, and no dimension. It cannot be perceived by reasoning, or by disputation, or by metaphorical presentation. It is beyond compare. It is neither white nor black, bright nor dark, big nor small. Nibbāna is the cessation of the three cycles of defilement, action, and results. Writing in 1943, I said in my book “Insight Meditation” by way of introduction: “Nibbāna is not a mansion or a palace. It is not a city. It is not light. There is no luminescence in nibbāna. It has no element of lucidity and coolness. Mansions, places, cities, light, luminescence, lucidity, and coolness are not unconditioned (asaṅkhata) or ultimate realities (paramattha)."- p.31

II Что существует? Что прекращается?

"When a flame is observed closely, it will be seen that the combustion is continuously supported by the burning oil that is sucked up by the wick. Casual observers notice the whole phenomenon as one continuous process. In the same way, the aggregates, generated by action, mind, climate, and nutriment are continually renewed, now arising and now passing away. If you want to know this nature, keep note of whatever appears at your six sense-doors as you see, hear, feel or know a sense-object. You will notice that a phenomenon occurs and at once ceases just as it has occurred. When mindfulness gains strength, you will realise the instant passing away of all phenomena of seeing, hearing, etc. To ordinary people these phenomena are continuous. So the aggregates are likened to a flame. As the cessation of the aggregates is likened to a flame being extinguished, people who are obsessed with the idea of self usually think and say that an Arahant as an individual has disappeared. In point of fact an individual has no basis of reality. What we describe, in conventional language, as an individual is, after all, a compound of materiality and mentality that manifest themselves. With Arahants, these compound things become extinct. Cessation does not mean the disappearance of the individual. If one is fixated on the belief that the individual disappears, then he will be guilty of the wrong view of annihilationism (uccheda-diṭṭhi). There is, as I have said, no individual. There is only a succession of mental and physical phenomena arising and dissolving. An Arahant is an epitome of that successive phenomena of arising and dissolution.Beyond the aggregates, there is no individual. So, with Arahants, cessation means the extinction of the successive rise and fall of the aggregates" – p.13

"Kamma-consciousness has no place for Arahants who, nearing parinibbāna, have only functional consciousness, which is not able to produce any result. When decease-consciousness arises at their parinibbāna, no rebirth-linking consciousness, no mind, and no matter can arise again. Thus it may be said that no becoming arises because the seed of kamma-consciousness is absent or impotent.

… When an Arahant is about to achieve parinibbāna, he is not troubled by kamma, kamma-nimitta, or gatinimitta. Activating consciousness also fails to operate, and so no results of kamma can bear fruit. Only ineffective functional consciousness associated with his insight meditation come into play. Beyond them there is nothing but
decease-consciousness pertaining to parinibbāna, on the achievement of which the seed of action becomes impotent. Thus there is the
complete annihilation of existence". – p.12

III В каком смысле Ниббана реальна?

"Since nibbāna means the cessation of mind, matter, and mental formations, suggestions have often been put forward that it signifies nothing and is thus useless. However, nibbāna is absolute reality, the reality of the nullification of the activities of mind, matter, and mental formations to which the knowledge of the Path, Fruition, and reviewing (paccavekkhaṇa) is inclined. It is the mind-object to which this knowledge is directed". – pp. 60-61
…
"For the sake of argument, let us say that there is no nibbāna where all the cycles of defilement, actions, and results cease. Then no one in this Universe can find peace. In the absence of nibbāna, defilement will play havoc with our lives to produce action, which will bring about results, which will create conditions for the
arising of a new group of aggregates aended by suffering. It is only the Path and its Fruition that can exterminate defilements, and this extermination will bring the cycle of suffering to an end. This cessation of suffering is real" – p.61

"That nibbāna denotes the cessation of defilements, actions, results, and aggregates of mind and matter might well be understood by now after a series of discourses. However, some may go away with the idea that, because cessation is often emphasised, it means nothingness. Actually it is an absolute reality and if that reality were to be denied there will be nothing less but defilements, actions, results, and aggregates, and no one will be able to get away from this whirling
cycle of rebirths (saṃsāra). This cycle can actually be stopped with the diligent practice of the Middle Way. Arahants do away with it after
the occurrence of their decease-consciousness following their parinibbāna". – p. 94

IV Как познаётся и испытывается прекращение, то есть - Ниббана?

"For an insight meditator, defilements become inert only for a moment during the practice of insight meditation. They cannot be totally uprooted. Total elimination is possible only with the realisation of the Noble Path, resulting in Path-consciousness flowing into the stream of annihilation" –p. 14

"When the Fruition of the Path is accomplished, rapture and joy experienced are paramount. Hence we say avedayita sukha far excels vedayita sukha" – p.26

"After repeated meditation exercises, a meditator will experience that consciousness flows on without prompting like a stream into the region of not being. That moment of realisation of cessation is the bliss of nibbāna, which is known through the knowledge of the Path and its Fruition" – p.28

"Through insight the meditator knows the process of formation and dissolution of conditioned things, so his or her conviction in impermanence stands firm. The meditator also realises that what is impermanent is unsatisfactory, and what is unsatisfactory is suffering. ...

The meditator sees no “I” in any phenomenon. As the meditator notes the arising and passing away of mind and matter, he or she perceives that this cycle of formation and dissolution is endless. What the meditator thus sees with the aid of insight meditation is occurrence. Concentrating on it incessantly, the meditator arrives at knowledge of equanimity about formations (saṅkhārupekkhāñāṇa), when the mind is inclined to the element of peace where the stream of mind and matter ceases to flow. As nothing occurs at this stage, it is called non-occurrence. That moment when this knowledge matures through the consciousness of the Path and its Fruition is the moment of truth when the meditator becomes at one with nibbāna".- pp.28-29

"In the early stages of the practice, the meditator has to bend the mind on the mind door, sense-object, and consciousness to note the arising and passing away of mind and matter. All the time he or she is aware of the rise and fall of aggregates. When insight knowledge matures, the mind flows, as it were, into the cessation of all phenomena of hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, touching, and knowing, when the
meditator is said to come face to face with nibbāna" – p.49

“When a meditator is mindful of the rising and falling of the abdomen, or the physical postures of sitting or standing, or the phenomena of seeing, hearing, etc., during meditation, he or she will become aware of the process of dissolution. If so, knowledge of dissolution develops. From the point of view of the subject who sees, there is
absolutely nothing about which to say, “It is I,” or “I exist.” From the point of view of the object that is seen, there is nothing to show, “It is a thing, it is an individual.” Thus one cannot find anything worthy of attachment. As this fact is being contemplated, the meditator attains the knowledge of equanimity about formations,
through bare awareness of the states of the mind, body, and of mental formations. Eventually the meditator will become aware of
the cessation of all aggregates” – p.50

"As the meditator becomes aware of the dissolution of things as he or she observes their rise and fall, a sense of disgust assails him or her and the meditator begins to develop the desire to abandon them. Mind and matter arise and pass away, flowing as an endless stream. Concentrating on this flow, the meditator just perceives it
automatically, not going beyond this perceptive stage. Later he or she becomes indifferent to it, because, by now, the knowledge of equanimity about formations has developed. Concentrating further on the phenomenon, the meditator discovers that the perceiving mind and the perceived object cease together. This is the transition
from occurrence to non-occurrence. You may recall what I said earlier in relation to nibbāna: what occurs is formations, and what does not occur is nibbāna". – pp. 53-54

"As the noting mind and the noted mind-object come to pass as if only for the sake of dissolution, it now dawns upon you that they are transient. They are forever in a state of flux. It is their inherent nature to arise and vanish. Such transience is most unsatisfactory. What is unsatisfactory is suffering. Now you have arrived at the
knowledge of the truth of suffering. This realisation dispels ignorance, so craving fails to assert itself as your mind-object. As craving is absent, attachment, cannot act as its accomplice. As no attachment occurs, no volitional activities can operate for the satisfaction of desires conjured up by the mind and its object. It means that no
actions can be formed, when we say that no formations arise. When formations cease, no rebirth-linking consciousness can take place. So there will be no new birth, that is to say no new aggregates. This indicates the cessation of both suffering and the cause leading to suffering. At that particular instant when you recognise this cessation
you realise nibbāna. This may be only for one moment, but that moment is the most precious. Noting and knowing the phenomena which ultimately leads to the knowledge of cessation, tantamount to worldly realisation of the truth of the path leading to the cessation of suffering" – p. 71

V Саупадисеса-ниббана:

"Once the Path is realised an Arahant enjoys sa-upādisesa nibbāna until attaining parinibbāna. He or she is absolutely happy in that state because all suffering caused by the cycle of defilements has been discarded. However, the body — the aggregates — still remains, and this may be for one or two thousand cycles in the case of those who realised the Path while in the plane of the brahmas. This is good in a way, because in that world physical suffering and unpleasant objects are non-existent. However, for those who realise the Path in this human world, they will have to endure the ills to which the flesh is an heir. For instance, the drudgery of making daily rounds for food, washing the face or taking a bath daily, etc. In this way an Arahant has to carry the burden of the aggregates in spite of having no
attachment to them" – p.40

VI Анупадисеса Ниббана; познание анупадисеса Ниббаны при жизни, сознанием пути и сознанием плода араханта:

"It is true that, by the time of the realisation of the Path, total cessation has already been effected, but it is not as obvious as when parinibbāna occurs. When a palm-tree breaks into two, the upper trunk falls to the ground, leaving the lower stump erect. This stump gives the illusion that the tree is intact and alive. When it rots and falls to the ground, the entire tree disappears. An Arahant is like that stump. He has abandoned aggregates and passions by the time he realises the Path. However, the old aggregates remain with him; and so the cessation is not intelligible. With the attainment of parinibbāna, he disappears totally just as the stump does" –p. 22

"Anupādisesa nibbāna becomes apparent only after parinibbāna. In this element, annihilation of becoming is complete. Knowing these two elements as Unformed or Uncreated by virtue of Path-consciousness, the Arahants are emancipated from becoming. Having realized the essence of the Dhamma, and having achieved equanimity towards all sense-objects, good or bad, they delight in the extinction of formations" – p.42

"It will not be strictly correct to say that the Path and its Fruition inclining towards nibbāna is the cause, and the cessation of defilements in the two
elements is the effect. It may also be noted that Peace to which the Path and its Fruition are inclined is ordinary nibbāna and the two elements now under review are extraordinary nibbāna. Both of them are one and the same, and both possess the atribute of peace (santi), one of the characteristics of nibbāna.

... Nibbāna is timeless, and so it will be equally improper to ask if the Path, at the moment of cessation of defilements, inclines towards nibbāna in the very course of its establishment, that is, in the present time or whether it looks forward to the future nibbāna with its annihilation of aggregates after the Arahant’s parinibbāna. Here, nibbāna is beyond the concept of time.
....
Consider also the phenomenon of cessation. It is neither an event, nor an arising. One cannot say that it arose, or it is arising, or it will arise. It has no relationship to time. Strictly speaking, we do not say that cessation has completed. It occurs with the moment that Path-consciousness occurs" –p. 42

"When defilements cease, the aggregates dependent on them, lose the opportunity to arise. The phenomenon in this instance is timeless. So it is pointless to ask whether Path-consciousness inclines to the present or to the future". –pp.42-43

"When Arahants arose from the meditation of nibbāna during the attainment of the fruits of the Paths, they used to express their delight as follows:
“Susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ, sammāsambuddhadesitaṃ. Asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ, yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī’ti.” “All sufferings are exterminated in nibbāna where there
is no sorrow, no passion, and no danger. Blissful indeed is nibbāna shown by the Fully Enlightened One.” Arahants are thus inclined towards this blissful state of anupādisesa nibbāna where all matter, mind, and mental formations become extinct. Since they do away with the cycle of suffering, no becoming arises – p.43

VII Опровержение взглядов о каком-либо опыте после париниббаны:

"The important point to note here is that feeling ceases with the parinibbāna of the Arahant. For ordinary people, and even for trained meditators, it cannot be discarded. They are wont to accept it as delightful, and thus attachment to it arises in them. Being attached to feeling, they take it on even at the moment of decease-consciousness. It thus flows on as the arising of rebirth-linking consciousness. Consequently new becoming arises. However, for the Arahant the cessation of feeling has been initiated in his life-time. It may be remembered that an analogy has been drawn from the dying out of a flame with regard to that cessation. This dying out started in his life-time. Since feeling has thus been quenched, there is no opportunity for becoming to arise again after the Arahant’s parinibbāna. What has been said about feeling applies with due alteration of details to perception, mental formations, and consciousness, which all cease as feeling ceases. Together with matter, they constitute
aggregates depending on which results come into being. With the negation of aggregates and results, annihilation is finally accomplished
by the Arahant without the substrata of existence remaining". – p. 41

"As I have said, as there are no primary elements in nibbāna, all matter dependent on these four elements are non-existent. Because of the absence of matter, there is no consciousness appertaining to the realm of the senses or to the realm of form — as, for instance, the first jhānic consciousness. For brevity’s sake I will discuss only about mind (citta), but whenever mind is mentioned one must remember it is accompanied by mental concomitants (cetasikā)". –p. 62

"Here, the text is also very explicit about the absence of formless sphere consciousness in nibbāna, whether it be consciousness appertaining to the abode of the Infinity of Space, or to the abode of the Infinity of Consciousness, or to the abode of Nothingness, or to the abode of Neither Perception nor Non-perception" –p. 62

"The highest plane of existence is where perception is so subtle that it can be described as an intermediate stage between perception and non-perception. Equally subtle are contact, feeling, consciousness, and mental formations — concomitants of the mind that can be met with in that realm. In nibbāna such subtleties of the mind are entirely absent" – p.63

"However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego. With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds" – p.64

"Yet the question might arise whether it is possible for sentient beings to come to nibbāna in the way that beings from the lower realms come to the human world, or beings from the human world come to the world of devas. However, in nibbāna there are no such comings. The usual term to describe the realisation of nibbāna is that the Buddhas and Arahants “enter” nibbāna, or specifically, anupādisesa nibbāna. This does not mean the arrival of new aggregates, but the cutting off of the flow of mind and matter that causes existence. It is the complete extinction of aggregates; and this extinction is recognised as anupādisesa nibbāna."- -p.64

Максим Фурин · Зарегистрирован: 01.05.2017 Суждений: 798

Nice!

Но это всё бессмысленно потому что:
"Ряяяяя!!И что что нет ума! Есть прямая данность в переживании потому шо дхамма!" Нужно бить прямо и не двусмысленно, ибо те кто cannot do away with self or ego, будут всегда искать какой-то обходной путь что бы утверждать переживаемость\знаемость даже после того как то чем знать и переживать распалось. Нужно недвусмысленное утверждение что без сознания ноу вей что то знать, не важно обусловленное или необусловленное.

empiriocritic_1900 · Зарегистрирован: 26.06.2017 Суждений: 8733

Nice!

Но это всё бессмысленно потому что:
"Ряяяяя!!И что что нет ума! Есть прямая данность в переживании потому шо дхамма!" Нужно бить прямо и не двусмысленно, ибо те кто cannot do away with self or ego, будут всегда искать какой-то обходной путь что бы утверждать переживаемость\знаемость даже после того как то чем знать и переживать распалось. Нужно недвусмысленное утверждение что без сознания ноу вей что то знать, не важно обусловленное или необусловленное.

КИ · 3Д Зарегистрирован: 17.02.2005 Суждений: 49290

не характеризуемое (animittapaccupanhanam)

КИ · 3Д Зарегистрирован: 17.02.2005 Суждений: 49290

Из-за этих моментов можно подумать, что ниббана - это ничто, и подумать, что это то же самое, что концепция несуществования (abhavapannatti). Но это абсолютно не похоже на концепцию несуществования. Очевидно, что она имеет природу прекращения, освобождения, не возникновения или не существования обусловленных феноменов.

Adzamaro

КИ
Разница в том, что есть еще не-обусловленные феномены/феномен. Они не прекращаются. Только не в стиле "их нет - поэтому не прекращаются". Не-обусловленное определяется как "не видно возникновения, изменения и угасания, по мере того как оно наличествует".

КИ · 3Д Зарегистрирован: 17.02.2005 Суждений: 49290

КИРазница в том, что есть еще не-обусловленные феномены/феномен.

Евгений Бобр · Зарегистрирован: 01.07.2015 Суждений: 4404

VII Опровержение взглядов о каком-либо опыте после париниббаны:

"The important point to note here is that feeling ceases with the parinibbāna of the Arahant. For ordinary people, and even for trained meditators, it cannot be discarded. They are wont to accept it as delightful, and thus attachment to it arises in them. Being attached to feeling, they take it on even at the moment of decease-consciousness. It thus flows on as the arising of rebirth-linking consciousness. Consequently new becoming arises. However, for the Arahant the cessation of feeling has been initiated in his life-time. It may be remembered that an analogy has been drawn from the dying out of a flame with regard to that cessation. This dying out started in his life-time. Since feeling has thus been quenched, there is no opportunity for becoming to arise again after the Arahant’s parinibbāna. What has been said about feeling applies with due alteration of details to perception, mental formations, and consciousness, which all cease as feeling ceases. Together with matter, they constitute
aggregates depending on which results come into being. With the negation of aggregates and results, annihilation is finally accomplished
by the Arahant without the substrata of existence remaining". – p. 41

"As I have said, as there are no primary elements in nibbāna, all matter dependent on these four elements are non-existent. Because of the absence of matter, there is no consciousness appertaining to the realm of the senses or to the realm of form — as, for instance, the first jhānic consciousness. For brevity’s sake I will discuss only about mind (citta), but whenever mind is mentioned one must remember it is accompanied by mental concomitants (cetasikā)". –p. 62

"Here, the text is also very explicit about the absence of formless sphere consciousness in nibbāna, whether it be consciousness appertaining to the abode of the Infinity of Space, or to the abode of the Infinity of Consciousness, or to the abode of Nothingness, or to the abode of Neither Perception nor Non-perception" –p. 62

"The highest plane of existence is where perception is so subtle that it can be described as an intermediate stage between perception and non-perception. Equally subtle are contact, feeling, consciousness, and mental formations — concomitants of the mind that can be met with in that realm. In nibbāna such subtleties of the mind are entirely absent" – p.63

"However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego. With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds" – p.64

"Yet the question might arise whether it is possible for sentient beings to come to nibbāna in the way that beings from the lower realms come to the human world, or beings from the human world come to the world of devas. However, in nibbāna there are no such comings. The usual term to describe the realisation of nibbāna is that the Buddhas and Arahants “enter” nibbāna, or specifically, anupādisesa nibbāna. This does not mean the arrival of new aggregates, but the cutting off of the flow of mind and matter that causes existence. It is the complete extinction of aggregates; and this extinction is recognised as anupādisesa nibbāna."- -p.64

empiriocritic_1900 · Зарегистрирован: 26.06.2017 Суждений: 8733

empiriocritic_1900 пишет:

VII Опровержение взглядов о каком-либо опыте после париниббаны:

"The important point to note here is that feeling ceases with the parinibbāna of the Arahant. For ordinary people, and even for trained meditators, it cannot be discarded. They are wont to accept it as delightful, and thus attachment to it arises in them. Being attached to feeling, they take it on even at the moment of decease-consciousness. It thus flows on as the arising of rebirth-linking consciousness. Consequently new becoming arises. However, for the Arahant the cessation of feeling has been initiated in his life-time. It may be remembered that an analogy has been drawn from the dying out of a flame with regard to that cessation. This dying out started in his life-time. Since feeling has thus been quenched, there is no opportunity for becoming to arise again after the Arahant’s parinibbāna. What has been said about feeling applies with due alteration of details to perception, mental formations, and consciousness, which all cease as feeling ceases. Together with matter, they constitute
aggregates depending on which results come into being. With the negation of aggregates and results, annihilation is finally accomplished
by the Arahant without the substrata of existence remaining". – p. 41

"As I have said, as there are no primary elements in nibbāna, all matter dependent on these four elements are non-existent. Because of the absence of matter, there is no consciousness appertaining to the realm of the senses or to the realm of form — as, for instance, the first jhānic consciousness. For brevity’s sake I will discuss only about mind (citta), but whenever mind is mentioned one must remember it is accompanied by mental concomitants (cetasikā)". –p. 62

"Here, the text is also very explicit about the absence of formless sphere consciousness in nibbāna, whether it be consciousness appertaining to the abode of the Infinity of Space, or to the abode of the Infinity of Consciousness, or to the abode of Nothingness, or to the abode of Neither Perception nor Non-perception" –p. 62

"The highest plane of existence is where perception is so subtle that it can be described as an intermediate stage between perception and non-perception. Equally subtle are contact, feeling, consciousness, and mental formations — concomitants of the mind that can be met with in that realm. In nibbāna such subtleties of the mind are entirely absent" – p.63

"However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego. With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds" – p.64

"Yet the question might arise whether it is possible for sentient beings to come to nibbāna in the way that beings from the lower realms come to the human world, or beings from the human world come to the world of devas. However, in nibbāna there are no such comings. The usual term to describe the realisation of nibbāna is that the Buddhas and Arahants “enter” nibbāna, or specifically, anupādisesa nibbāna. This does not mean the arrival of new aggregates, but the cutting off of the flow of mind and matter that causes existence. It is the complete extinction of aggregates; and this extinction is recognised as anupādisesa nibbāna."- -p.64

Нет опровержения опытности ниббаны. Это общебуддийские, как я Вам сразу и сказал, рассуждения о том, что в Ниббане нет обусловленных видов опыта, нет никаких санкхата дхамм, нет кхандх.

Тренер_ · Гость Откуда: Namangan

What we describe, in conventional language, as an individual is, after all, a compound of materiality and mentality that manifest themselves. With Arahants, these compound things become extinct. Cessation does not mean the disappearance of the individual. If one is fixated on the belief that the individual disappears, then he will be guilty of the wrong view of annihilationism (uccheda-diṭṭhi). There is, as I have said, no individual. There is only a succession of mental and physical phenomena arising and dissolving. An Arahant is an epitome of that successive phenomena of arising and dissolution.Beyond the aggregates, there is no individual. So, with Arahants, cessation means the extinction of the successive rise and fall of the aggregates" – p.13

Тренер_ · Гость Откуда: Namangan

VII Опровержение взглядов о каком-либо опыте после париниббаны:

Этот заголовок самовольный и субъективный. Призываю Вас его изменить.

empiriocritic_1900 · Зарегистрирован: 26.06.2017 Суждений: 8733

VII Опровержение взглядов о каком-либо опыте после париниббаны:

Этот заголовок самовольный и субъективный. Призываю Вас его изменить.

Won Soeng

VII Опровержение взглядов о каком-либо опыте после париниббаны:

Этот заголовок самовольный и субъективный. Призываю Вас его изменить.