Буддийские форумы Дхарма
Буддийское сообщество
 
 FAQFAQ   ПоискПоиск   ПользователиПользователи  ГруппыГруппы   КалендарьКалендарь   PeгиcтрaцияPeгиcтрaция 
 ПрофильПрофиль   Войти и проверить личные сообщенияВойти и проверить личные сообщения   ВхoдВхoд 
 Новые постыНовые посты   За сегодняЗа сегодня   За неделюЗа неделю 
В этом разделе: За сегодняЗа сегодня   За неделюЗа неделю   За месяцЗа месяц 

Абхидхамма и Сознание Будды

Страницы 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  След.
 
Новая тема   Ответ на тему    Буддийские форумы -> Семинар по абхидхарме
Предыдущая :: Следующая тема  
Автор Сообщение
Alex123



Зарегистрирован: 03.03.2011
Суждений: 2550

117355СообщениеДобавлено: Пн 21 Май 12, 22:52 (5 лет тому назад)    Абхидхамма и Сознание Будды Ответ с цитатой

Мне интересно если эти учения можно как то совместить.

Возможно ли что "Сознание Будды которое  у всех уже есть" это что то типа:

(vipāka или kiriya) ahetukacittа   + 7 универсальных четасик присутствующих в каждой читте (sabbacittasādhāraṇā) ?

7 универсальных четасик присутствуют во всех читт, как у просветленных так и у самых больших грешников.
Также все виды 18 читт (кроме читта улыбки Архата) происходят как у просветленных так и у самых больших грешников.

В них нету активного производства каммы или активных негативных качеств ума (lobha, dosa, moha).

_________________
"тлен и прах..."
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение
Won Soeng
БТР


Зарегистрирован: 14.07.2006
Суждений: 6380
Откуда: Питер

117375СообщениеДобавлено: Вт 22 Май 12, 15:05 (5 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Сознание Будды это Татхагата. Что о татхагате говорится в абхидхамме?
_________________
Пока человек верит в безусловность правильных взглядов, он просто не смотрит на условия в которых эти взгляды взращиваются
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение Отправить e-mail
Alex123



Зарегистрирован: 03.03.2011
Суждений: 2550

117382СообщениеДобавлено: Вт 22 Май 12, 18:31 (5 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

БТР пишет:
Сознание Будды это Татхагата. Что о татхагате говорится в абхидхамме?

А как вы определяете что такое татхагата? Какие свойства это имеет?

Кстати, как я читал у экспертов, это слово может просто обозначать Исторического Будду.  Как и Будда может видить, слышать, и.т.д. так и мы можем видить, слышать, и.т.д.

_________________
"тлен и прах..."
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение
Won Soeng
БТР


Зарегистрирован: 14.07.2006
Суждений: 6380
Откуда: Питер

117486СообщениеДобавлено: Пт 25 Май 12, 13:23 (5 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Alex123 пишет:
БТР пишет:
Сознание Будды это Татхагата. Что о татхагате говорится в абхидхамме?

А как вы определяете что такое татхагата? Какие свойства это имеет?

Кстати, как я читал у экспертов, это слово может просто обозначать Исторического Будду.  Как и Будда может видить, слышать, и.т.д. так и мы можем видить, слышать, и.т.д.

Точно не как обозначение исторического Будды, а как сознание Будды - различающее без цепляния.

То как нужно расспрашивать монаха и как должен отвечать архат постигший окончательную истину рассказывется в чаббисодхана-сутте.

Цитата:
The Discourse on a Declaration of [Final] Knowledge
1.  Thus  have  I  heard.  At  one time the Buddha was staying at Sāvatthī in
Jeta’s grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s park.
2. At that time the Blessed One told the monks: “Suppose a monk approaches you and declares to have attained [final] knowledge, [saying]: ‘I
know in accordance with reality that birth has been extinguished, the
holy life has been established, what had to be done has been done, there
is no further clinging to existence.’
5. Hearing this you should approve of it as good and correct,
9
rejoice in
it, and act in accordance with it. Having approved of it as good and correct, having rejoiced in it and acted in accordance with it, you should ask
that monk further like this:
Venerable friend, the Blessed One has taught five aggregates of
clinging, the aggregates of clinging of bodily form, feeling, perception, formations and consciousness.
10
Venerable friend, knowing what and seeing what in regard to these five aggregates of
clinging have you attained the knowledge that there is no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the influxes
the mind has been liberated?
6. A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly
answer like this:
Venerable friends, the bodily form aggregate of clinging is without strength,
11
empty and void, it is undesirable, it has no permanent existence, it cannot be relied on and is of a nature to change.
Knowing like this, [whatever] I had of desire, defilement, attachment, bondage, and underlying tendency to bondage and attachment in regard to the bodily form aggregate of clinging
12

that has been extinguished, has faded away, ceased, been tranquillized and calmed; and I attained the knowledge that there is
no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the
influxes the mind has been liberated.
Like this the feeling aggregate of clinging . . . perception . . . formations . . . the consciousness [aggregate of clinging] is without
strength, empty and void, it is undesirable, it has no permanent
existence, it cannot be relied on and is of a nature to change.
Knowing like this, whatever I had of desire, defilement, attachment, bondage, and underlying tendency to bondage and attachment in regard to the consciousness aggregate of clinging—
that has been extinguished, has faded away, ceased, been tranquillized and calmed; and I attained the knowledge that there is
no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the
influxes the mind has been liberated.
Venerable friends, knowing like this and seeing like this in regard
to these five aggregates of clinging, I attained the knowledge that
there is no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the influxes the mind has been liberated.  
A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly
answer like this.
Hearing this you should approve of it as good and correct, rejoice in it
and act in accordance with it. Having approved of it as good and correct,
having rejoiced in it, and acted in accordance with it, you should further
ask that monk like this:
Venerable friend, the Blessed One has taught four nutriments,
due to which living beings obtain existence and continue growing.
13
What are the four? Edible food, coarse and fine, is reckoned
the first, contact the second, volition the third, and consciousness
the fourth. Venerable friend, knowing what and seeing what in Anālayo,
regard to these four nutriments have you attained the knowledge
that there is no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the influxes the mind has been liberated?
A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly
answer like this:
Venerable friends, being neither mentally elated nor depressed in
regard to edible food—not depending on it, not bound by it, not
defiled by it, and not attached to it—I attained release, I attained
emancipation, I attained total liberation, freeing the mind from
the perversions [*vipallāsa], knowing in accordance with reality
that birth has been extinguished, the holy life has been established, what had to be done has  been done, there is no further
clinging to existence.
Like this being neither mentally elated nor depressed in regard to
the nutriment of contact . . . volition . . . consciousness—not depending on it, not bound by it, not defiled by it, and not attached
to it—I attained release, I attained emancipation, I attained total
liberation, freeing the mind from the perversions, knowing in accordance with reality that birth has been extinguished, the holy
life has been established, what  had to be done has been done,
there is no further clinging to existence.
Venerable friends, knowing like this and seeing like this in regard
to these four nutriments I attained the knowledge that there is
no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the
influxes the mind has been liberated.
A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly
answer like this.  
3.
14
Hearing this you should approve of it as good and correct, rejoice in
it and act in accordance with it. Having approved of it as good and correct, having rejoiced in it and acted in accordance with it, you should
further ask that monk like this:
Venerable friend, the Blessed One has taught four [ways of] expression.
15
What are the four? Declaring to have seen [what has
really been] seen is reckoned the first, declaring to have heard
[what has really been] heard is reckoned the second, declaring to
have experienced [what has really been] experienced is reckoned
the third, declaring to have come to know [what has really been]
known is reckoned the fourth.
16
Venerable friend, knowing what
and seeing what in regard to these four [ways of] expression have
you attained the knowledge that there is no clinging to anything
and that [through] the destruction of the influxes the mind has
been liberated?
4. A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly
answer like this:
Venerable friends, being neither mentally elated nor depressed in
regard to declaring to have seen [what has been] seen
17
—not depending on it, not bound by it, not defiled by it, and not attached
to it—I attained release, I attained emancipation, I attained total
liberation, freeing the mind from the perversions, knowing in accordance with reality that birth has been extinguished, the holy
life has been established, what  had to be done has been done,
there is no further clinging to existence.
Like this being neither mentally elated nor depressed in regard to
[declaring] to have heard [what has been] heard . . . [declaring] to
have experienced [what has been] experienced . . . [declaring] to Anālayo,  
have come to know [what has been] known—not depending on it,
not bound by it, not defiled by it, and not attached to it—I attained release, I attained emancipation, I attained total liberation,
freeing the mind from the perversions, knowing in accordance
with reality that birth has been  extinguished, the holy life has
been established, what had to be done has been done, there is no
further clinging to existence.
Venerable friends, knowing like this and seeing like this in regard
to these four [ways of] expression I attained the knowledge that
there is no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the influxes the mind has been liberated.
A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly
answer like this.  
9. Hearing this you should approve of it as good and correct, rejoice in it
and act in accordance with it. Having approved of it as good and correct,
having rejoiced in it, and acted in accordance with it, you should further
ask that monk like this:
Venerable friend, the Blessed One has taught six internal sensespheres: The eye sense-sphere, the ear . . . nose . . . tongue . . .
body . . . and the mind sense-sphere. Venerable friend, knowing
what and seeing what in regard to these six internal sensespheres have you attained the knowledge that there is no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the influxes
the mind has been liberated?
10. A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has
attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly answer like this:  
Venerable friends, in regard to the eye as well as eyeconsciousness, and [in regard to] objects to be experienced by
eye-consciousness,
18
I have complete knowledge. Having come to
know these two aspects [of experience], venerable friends, delight [in regard to] the eye as well as eye-consciousness, and [in
regard to] objects to be experienced by eye-consciousness, has
been extinguished. [Through] that extinction, dispassion, cessation, tranquillization and calming I attained the knowledge that
there is no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the influxes the mind has been liberated.
Like this in regard to the ear . . . the nose . . . the tongue . . . the
body . . . the mind as well as mind-consciousness, and [in regard
to] objects to be experienced by mind-consciousness, I have complete knowledge. Having come to know these two aspects [of experience], venerable friends, delight [in regard to] the mind as
well as mind-consciousness, and [in regard to] objects to be experienced by mind-consciousness has been extinguished. [Through]
that extinction, dispassion, cessation, tranquillization and calming I attained the knowledge that there is no clinging to anything
and that [through] the destruction of the influxes the mind has
been liberated.
Venerable friends, knowing like this and seeing like this in regard
to these six internal sense-spheres I attained the knowledge that
there is no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the influxes the mind has been liberated.
A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly
answer like this.  Anālayo,
7. Hearing this you should approve of it as good and correct, rejoice in it
and act in accordance with it. Having approved of it as good and correct,
having rejoiced in it, and acted in accordance with it, you should further
ask that monk like this:
Venerable friend, the Blessed One has taught six elements: the
earth element, the water element, the fire element, the wind
element, the space element, and the consciousness element.
Venerable friend, knowing what and seeing what in regard to
these six elements have you attained the knowledge that there is
no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the
influxes the mind has been liberated?’
8. A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly
answer like this:  
Venerable friends, I do not see the earth element as mine, nor [do
I see] myself as belonging to the earth element, nor [do I see] the
earth element as a self,
19
that is to say, [in regard to] these three
[modes of] clinging that in dependence on the earth element
come into existence,
20
[through] the extinction, fading away, cessation, tranquillization and calming of any
21
underlying tendency
to attachment I attained the knowledge that there is no clinging
to anything and that [through] the destruction of the influxes the
mind has been liberated.
Venerable friends, I do not see the water . . . the fire . . . the air . . .
the space . . . the consciousness element as mine, nor [do I see]
myself as belonging to the consciousness element, nor [do I see]
the consciousness element as the self, that is to say, [in regard to]
these three [modes of] clinging that  in  dependence  on  the  consciousness element come into existence, [through] the extinction,
fading away, cessation, tranquillization and calming of any underlying tendency to attachment I attained the knowledge that
there is no clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the influxes the mind has been liberated.
Venerable friends, knowing like this and seeing like this in regard
to these six elements I attained the knowledge that there is no
clinging to anything and that [through] the destruction of the influxes the mind has been liberated.
A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly
answer like this.  
11. Hearing this you should approve of it as good and correct, rejoice in it
and act in accordance with it. Having approved of it as good and correct,
having rejoiced in it, and acted in accordance with it, you should further
ask that monk like this:
Venerable friend, knowing what and seeing what in regard to this
internal body with consciousness and [in regard to] all external
signs has any [notion of an] ‘I,’ I-making and underling tendency
to conceit been abandoned, is known to have been uprooted and
cut off at its root, unable to come to growth again?
12. A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has
attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly answer like this:  
Venerable friends, formerly at  the time when I had not gone
forth to train in the path, I felt weary of birth, old age, disease
and death; of sorrow, lamentation and distress; of worry, mourning, dejection and grief —wishing to abandon this great mass of
dukkha. Anālayo,
Venerable friends, having felt weary of this misery I had this reflection: ‘Life in the house is confined, a place full of dust; going
forth to train in the path is [like] emerging into a great open
space. Now for me at home, being chained by [such] chains, it is
not possible to completely manifest for the [whole] life the pure
practice of the holy life. I would rather forsake [my] wealth, little
or much, forsake [my] relatives, few or many, shave off beard and
hair, don brown robes and out of confidence leave the home life,
become homeless and train in the path.  
Venerable friends, at a later time I forsook [my] wealth, little or
much, forsook [my] relatives, few or many, shaved off beard and
hair, donned brown robes and out of confidence left the home
life, became homeless and trained in the path.
13. Venerable friends, having gone forth to train in the path, having forsaken the [outward] signs of being a family [man] and received the essentials of monkhood, I practiced the precepts,
guarding the code of rules; I adopted proper conduct and manners, always fearing the slightest fault, upholding the essentials
of the training.  
Venerable friends, I was aloof from killing and had given up killing, having discarded sword and club, with a sense of shame and
fear of blame, with a mind [full of] loving kindness and compassion, [wishing to] benefit all [beings], even insects.
22
I purified my
mind with regard to killing living beings.
[Venerable friends], I was aloof from taking what is not given and
had given up taking what is not  given, taking [something only]
after [it] had been given, delighting  in  taking  what  is  given,  always being fond of [myself] giving in generosity, rejoicing in [ge-
nerosity] without stinginess, not expecting a reward. I purified
my mind with regard to taking what is not given.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from sexual activity and had given
up sexual activity, diligently cultivating the practice of celibacy,
energetically [practicing this] immaculate conduct with unsoiled
purity, free from sensual desires, giving up sexual desires. I purified my mind with regard to sexual activity.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from false speech and had given up
false speech, I spoke the truth, delighting in truth, unshakably established in speaking truth, being completely trustworthy, not
deceiving [anyone in] the world. I purified my mind with regard
to false speech.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from divisive speech and had given
up divisive speech, I engaged in speech that is not divisive, that
does not harm others. I did not tell those what I had heard here,
out of a wish to harm these; nor did I tell these what I had heard
there, out of a wish to harm those. I had the wish to unite those
that were divided, delighting in [such] union. I did not create factions, did not delight in or praise the [forming of] factions. I purified my mind with regard to divisive speech.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from harsh speech and had given
up harsh speech. Whatever speech there is that is rough and rude
in tone, offensive sounds that grate on the ear, that people neither enjoy nor desire, [speech] that causes others suffering and
vexation and that does not lead to calmness, such speech I had
given up.
23
Whatever speech there is that is clear, peaceful, gentle
and beneficial, that is pleasant to the ear and [easily] enters the
mind, that is enjoyable and desirable, that gives others happiness,
words endowed with meaning, that do not make others afraid Anālayo,
and that lead to calmness in others,
24
such speech I spoke. I purified my mind with regard to harsh speech.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from frivolous speech and had given up frivolous speech. I spoke at the [proper] time, speaking
[what] is true, [what] is  Dhamma, [what] is meaningful, [what
leads to] appeasement, delighting in appeasing litigations, I
would teach well and admonish  well in accordance with the
[proper] time and in a proper way.
25
I purified my mind with regard to frivolous speech.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from earning profits and had given
up earning profits. I had discarded weights and measures and did
not accept goods [on commission], I did not bind people [with
debts], I did not try to cheat with measures, nor did I deceive others for the sake of some small profit.
26
I purified my mind with
regard to earning profits.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from accepting widows or girls and
had given up accepting widows or girls. I purified my mind with
regard to accepting widows or girls.
Venerable friends, I was aloof  from accepting male or female
slaves and had given up accepting male or female slaves. I purified my mind with regard to accepting male or female slaves.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from accepting elephants, horses,
cows or sheep and had given up  accepting elephants, horses,
cows or sheep. I purified my mind with regard to accepting elephants, horses, cows or sheep.
27
Venerable friends, I was aloof from accepting chickens or swine
and had given up accepting chickens or swine. I purified my mind
with regard to accepting chickens or swine.  
Venerable friends, I was aloof from accepting farmlands or marketplaces and had given up accepting farmlands or marketplaces.
28
I purified my mind with regard to accepting farmlands or
marketplaces.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from accepting uncooked rice,
wheat, or legumes and had given up accepting uncooked rice,
wheat, or legumes.
29
I purified my mind with regard to accepting
uncooked rice, wheat, or legumes.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from alcoholic beverages and had
given up alcoholic beverages.
30
I purified my mind with regard to
alcoholic beverages.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from [reclining on] high and broad
beds and had given up [reclining on] high and broad beds. I purified my mind with regard to high and broad beds.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from [making use of] flower garlands, necklaces, perfumes and cosmetics and had given up [making use of] flower garlands, necklaces, perfumes and cosmetics. I
purified my mind with regard to flower garlands, necklaces, perfumes and cosmetics.
Venerable friends, I was aloof from singing, dancing or acting,
and from going to see or hear [singing, dancing or acting]; I had
given up singing, dancing or acting, and [given up] going to see or
hear [singing, dancing or acting]. I purified my mind with regard
to singing, dancing or acting, and [with regard to] going to see or
hear [singing, dancing or acting].
Venerable friends, I was aloof from accepting gold or silver and
had given up accepting gold or silver. I purified my mind with regard to accepting gold or silver. Anālayo,
Venerable friends, I was aloof from eating after noon and had
given up eating after noon. I always took [only] a single meal [per
day], not eating at night, training in eating at the [proper] time. I
purified my mind with regard to eating after noon.
14. Venerable friends, having accomplished this noble aggregate
of virtue I further engaged in contentment, taking robes [just] to
cover the body and taking food [just] to sustain the physical body.
Wherever I went, I took robes  and bowl with me, without concerns or longings, just as a wild goose flies through the air with
[only] its two wings, I was like that.
15. Venerable friends, having accomplished this noble aggregate
of virtue and this supreme contentment,
31
I further guarded the
senses, always mindful of stopping thoughts of desire, with clear
understanding successfully guarding the mind through mindfulness and attaining perfection [therein], constantly willing to
arouse the mind.
32
Thus, on seeing a form with the eye, I did not
grasp its sign nor did I savor the form.
33
That is to say, for the
sake of restraint
34
I guarded the eye faculty so that no greed and
expectation, sadness and worry, evil and unwholesome phenomena would arise in the mind, for that reason I guarded the eye
faculty.
Like this, on [hearing a sound] with the ear ... [smelling an odor]
with the nose . . . [tasting a flavor] with the tongue . . . [experiencing a touch] with the body . .  . coming to know a phenomenon
with the mind, I did not grasp its sign nor did I savor the phenomenon. That is to say, for the sake of restraint I guarded the mind
faculty so that no greed and expectation, sadness and worry, evil
and unwholesome phenomena would arise in the mind, for that
reason I guarded the mind faculty.
16. Venerable friends, having accomplished this noble aggregate
of virtue, this supreme contentment, and this noble guarding of
the senses,
35
[I] had clear comprehension when going out or coming in,
36
contemplating and distinguishing well [when] bending,
stretching, lowering or lifting up [a limb]; with orderly manners
and appearance,
37
I properly carried the outer robe, the other
robes and the bowl;
38
[when] walking, standing, sitting and reclining, [when] sleeping or awake, [when] talking or keeping silent,
[I] always had clear comprehension.
17. Venerable friends, having accomplished this noble aggregate
of virtue, this supreme knowledge of contentment, this noble
guarding of the senses, and having obtained clear comprehension
when going out or coming in, [I] stayed alone in a secluded solitary place, either going to an empty peaceful place at the foot of a
tree, [or to] a mountain cave, [or to] a heap of straw in an open
place, or in a forest, or in a cemetery.
Venerable friends, having stayed in a solitary place, or having
gone to an empty peaceful place at the foot of a tree, I spread the
sitting mat and sat down cross-legged with straight body and
straight mental aspiration, and  with mindfulness that was not
scattered.
39
I abandoned and removed covetousness, with a mind
free from agitation
40
I did not give rise to covetousness with the
wish ‘may I get it’ [when] seeing the wealth of others and their
endowment with livelihood. I purified my mind with regard to
covetousness.
Like this I abandoned ill-will . . . sloth-and-torpor . . . restlessnessand-worry . . . doubt, overcoming delusion, free from vacillation
in regard to wholesome things. I purified my mind with regard to
doubt.  Anālayo,
18. Venerable friends, when I had abandoned these five hindrances, which are blemishes of the mind that weaken wisdom,
free from sensual pleasures and free from evil and unwholesome
things . . . (up to) . . . I dwelled having attained the fourth absorption.
19. Venerable friends, when I had obtained concentration like
this, with a mind that is purified and without blemish or affliction, that had become soft and supple, well steadied and attained
to imperturbability, I roused the mind to progress towards knowledge and realization of the destruction of the influxes.
Venerable friends, I knew: ‘this is dukkha’ in accordance with reality, I knew: ‘this is the arising of dukkha,’ I knew: ‘this is the cessation of dukkha,’ I knew: ‘this is the path leading to the cessation
of  dukkha’ in accordance with reality. I knew: ‘these are the influxes,’ I knew: ‘this is the arising of the influxes,’ I knew: ‘this is
the cessation of the influxes,’ I knew: ‘this is the path leading to
the cessation of the influxes’ in accordance with reality.
20. When I knew and saw like this, the mind was liberated from
the influx of sensual desire, from the influx of being, and from
the influx of ignorance. Being liberated I knew I was liberated,
knowing in accordance with reality: ‘Birth has been extinguished,
the holy life has been established, what had to be done has been
done, there is no further clinging to existence’.
Knowing like this and seeing like this in regard to this internal
body with consciousness and [in regard to] all external signs any
[notion of an] ‘I,’ I-making and underlying tendency to conceit
has been abandoned, is known to have been uprooted and cut off
at its root, unable to come to growth again.’
A monk, whose influxes are destroyed and who in this teaching has attained the knowledge of having established the holy life, would properly
answer like this.  
21. Hearing this you should approve of it as good and correct, rejoice in it
and act in accordance with it. Having approved of it as good and correct,
having rejoiced in it, and acted in accordance with it, you should further
tell that monk like this: Venerable friend, at your first declaration we already felt approval and rejoiced in it. Yet, we wanted to further listen to
the venerable one [as he proceeds] from high to higher and seek out his
wisdom and eloquence in replying, for this reason we kept on asking the
venerable question after question.”
41
 
The Buddha spoke like this. The monks heard what the Buddha said,
were delighted and acted in accordance with it.

_________________
Пока человек верит в безусловность правильных взглядов, он просто не смотрит на условия в которых эти взгляды взращиваются
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение Отправить e-mail
ТМ



Зарегистрирован: 05.04.2005
Суждений: 2465

227545СообщениеДобавлено: Пн 29 Дек 14, 10:44 (2 года тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Я так думаю, что это высокопарные выражения, а описывают они сам факт наличия сознания. Если оно есть, то есть и возможность идти по Пути. "Ясность ума никогда не затрагивалась помрачениями" - отражение того, что по природе никто не плох и есть возможность стать лучше, как пример. Но сказано или переведено, имхо, все это не очень удачно. Располагает к странным идеям.

Навряд ли эти тексты шли так глубоко, что отсылали к абхидхармическим классификациям. Есть сознание - значит и сознание будды и нирвана возможны. Вот и вся мысль, на мой взгляд.

С випака-читтами есть такая трудность, что они происходят у всех, представляют лишь часть сознания, не определяющие для арьев, пассивны, морально "нейтральны" и Путь их вообще не затрагивает. Почти то же самое с кирия-читтами, которые не от следования Пути.
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение
Дмитрий С
заблокирован


Зарегистрирован: 28.03.2013
Суждений: 5818
Откуда: Харьков

227563СообщениеДобавлено: Пн 29 Дек 14, 23:09 (2 года тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Интересно, что мастер дзэн Банкэй говорил о своей школе как школе "сознания Будды". Мне, кстати, всегда не нравилось это название (да простит меня великий мастер). Мне кажется, в буддизме нет нужды выпячивать сознание в ущерб, скажем, телу. (Где-то у Догэна есть глубокие соображения на этот счет). Не должно быть никакого примата "сознания над материей", так же, как и наоборот. Сознание - это всего лишь одна из скандх.

Впрочем, все зависит от того, что вкладывать в понятие "сознание"...
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение
Won Soeng
БТР


Зарегистрирован: 14.07.2006
Суждений: 6380
Откуда: Питер

227564СообщениеДобавлено: Вт 30 Дек 14, 00:14 (2 года тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Скандха "сознание" - это отнюдь не все сознание. Скандхи - это упадана скандха, совокупности цепляния.
_________________
Пока человек верит в безусловность правильных взглядов, он просто не смотрит на условия в которых эти взгляды взращиваются
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение Отправить e-mail
ТМ



Зарегистрирован: 05.04.2005
Суждений: 2465

227565СообщениеДобавлено: Вт 30 Дек 14, 00:51 (2 года тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Могли с этой стороны подавать материал, потому что ситуация такая была. Считали, что так будет лучше. С тантрой, имхо, точно так же было. Зашли с другой стороны, которая не вызывала отторжения. В самой Абхидхам (-р) ме такое, понятно, не рассматривается, но, по всей видимости, надежд особых никто не питал.
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение
Дмитрий С
заблокирован


Зарегистрирован: 28.03.2013
Суждений: 5818
Откуда: Харьков

227566СообщениеДобавлено: Вт 30 Дек 14, 01:58 (2 года тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Won Soeng пишет:
Скандха "сознание" - это отнюдь не все сознание. Скандхи - это упадана скандха, совокупности цепляния.

Есть скандха, есть упадана, а есть упадана скандха. Давай не смешивать в одну кучу все на свете. Что, у исторического Гаутамы не было скандх? У него не было упаданы, это да...
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение
Dron



Зарегистрирован: 01.01.2010
Суждений: 9324

232665СообщениеДобавлено: Сб 14 Фев 15, 00:03 (2 года тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Дмитрий С пишет:
Won Soeng пишет:
Скандха "сознание" - это отнюдь не все сознание. Скандхи - это упадана скандха, совокупности цепляния.

Есть скандха, есть упадана, а есть упадана скандха. Давай не смешивать в одну кучу все на свете. Что, у исторического Гаутамы не было скандх? У него не было упаданы, это да...
Дмитрий С, отчего вы не буддист?
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение
Си-ва-кон
སྲི་བ་དཀོན


Зарегистрирован: 19.12.2014
Суждений: 3680

232968СообщениеДобавлено: Ср 18 Фев 15, 15:50 (2 года тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Won Soeng пишет:
Скандха "сознание" - это отнюдь не все сознание. Скандхи - это упадана скандха, совокупности цепляния.

Вроде везде говорится, что сознание состоит из пяти скандх. Или Вы имеете ввиду дхармы (частицы) - их точное число колеблется от "школы к школе", поправьте меня, если ошибаюсь или чего-то недопонимаю - я думал что все эти дхармы к какой-нибудь скандхе да относятся.

_________________
Безукоризненная вежливость японцев - следствие их многовековой привычки открыто носить два меча
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение Отправить e-mail
Won Soeng
БТР


Зарегистрирован: 14.07.2006
Суждений: 6380
Откуда: Питер

232975СообщениеДобавлено: Ср 18 Фев 15, 17:40 (2 года тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Дмитрий С пишет:
Won Soeng пишет:
Скандха "сознание" - это отнюдь не все сознание. Скандхи - это упадана скандха, совокупности цепляния.

Есть скандха, есть упадана, а есть упадана скандха. Давай не смешивать в одну кучу все на свете. Что, у исторического Гаутамы не было скандх? У него не было упаданы, это да...

Нет просто скандх без упаданы. С каждым рождением скандхи образуются и с каждой смертью распадаются. Скандхи правильно называются упадана скандхи.
И тело и ум Шакьямуни - это пять упадана скандх. Татхагата, архат - не привязан к скандхам, но заботится о них без привязанности, ради других, но не более, чем это необходимо, скромно. С самого начала Татхагата не может быть обнаружен среди этих пяти скандх, татхагата не имеет ни в чем опоры, поскольку - нерожденное.

Не нужно в этом путаться, хотя бы знать и понимать это можно вполне уверенно.

_________________
Пока человек верит в безусловность правильных взглядов, он просто не смотрит на условия в которых эти взгляды взращиваются
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение Отправить e-mail
Won Soeng
БТР


Зарегистрирован: 14.07.2006
Суждений: 6380
Откуда: Питер

232977СообщениеДобавлено: Ср 18 Фев 15, 17:51 (2 года тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Си-ва-кон пишет:
Won Soeng пишет:
Скандха "сознание" - это отнюдь не все сознание. Скандхи - это упадана скандха, совокупности цепляния.

Вроде везде говорится, что сознание состоит из пяти скандх. Или Вы имеете ввиду дхармы (частицы) - их точное число колеблется от "школы к школе", поправьте меня, если ошибаюсь или чего-то недопонимаю - я думал что все эти дхармы к какой-нибудь скандхе да относятся.

Сознание (виджняна) - не вся психика (ум), хоть и весьма важный и глубоко рассматриваемый предмет.

Пять скандх обозначают рожденную и смертную психику.
Двенадцать звеньев показывают цепь рождений и смертей.

Нигде не говорится, что сознание состоит из пяти скандх, говорится об упадана скандхах: рупа, ведана, самджня, санскара и виджняна.

Но помимо скандх, виджняна это так же звено цепи взаимообусловленности.
Поэтому, с распадом пяти совокупностей (включая совокупность сознания), сами дхармы лишь расцепляются, но не прекращаются.
Это как растаявший снеговик перестает быть связанным объектом, но снег, превратившись в воду, все так же может быть обнаружен. Можно видеть разные формы воды - облака, выпадение дождя, снега или града, лужи, ручейки, снежные завалы, снеговики и отпечатки ног на снегу, реки, озера, моря и океаны.

Так же и психика - состоит из безличных элементов (дхарм), встречающихся в любом экземпляре психики, но не возникающие в этом экземпляре и не прекращающиеся в нем, а лишь обнаруживающихся в сцеплении с другими, образуя комплексные, сложные наблюдаемые явления психики во всем их разнообразии.

_________________
Пока человек верит в безусловность правильных взглядов, он просто не смотрит на условия в которых эти взгляды взращиваются
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение Отправить e-mail
Си-ва-кон
སྲི་བ་དཀོན


Зарегистрирован: 19.12.2014
Суждений: 3680

232981СообщениеДобавлено: Ср 18 Фев 15, 18:19 (2 года тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Won Soeng пишет:
Си-ва-кон пишет:
Won Soeng пишет:
Скандха "сознание" - это отнюдь не все сознание. Скандхи - это упадана скандха, совокупности цепляния.

Вроде везде говорится, что сознание состоит из пяти скандх. Или Вы имеете ввиду дхармы (частицы) - их точное число колеблется от "школы к школе", поправьте меня, если ошибаюсь или чего-то недопонимаю - я думал что все эти дхармы к какой-нибудь скандхе да относятся.

Сознание (виджняна) - не вся психика (ум), хоть и весьма важный и глубоко рассматриваемый предмет.

Пять скандх обозначают рожденную и смертную психику.
Двенадцать звеньев показывают цепь рождений и смертей.

Нигде не говорится, что сознание состоит из пяти скандх, говорится об упадана скандхах: рупа, ведана, самджня, санскара и виджняна.

Но помимо скандх, виджняна это так же звено цепи взаимообусловленности.
Поэтому, с распадом пяти совокупностей (включая совокупность сознания), сами дхармы лишь расцепляются, но не прекращаются.
Это как растаявший снеговик перестает быть связанным объектом, но снег, превратившись в воду, все так же может быть обнаружен. Можно видеть разные формы воды - облака, выпадение дождя, снега или града, лужи, ручейки, снежные завалы, снеговики и отпечатки ног на снегу, реки, озера, моря и океаны.

Так же и психика - состоит из безличных элементов (дхарм), встречающихся в любом экземпляре психики, но не возникающие в этом экземпляре и не прекращающиеся в нем, а лишь обнаруживающихся в сцеплении с другими, образуя комплексные, сложные наблюдаемые явления психики во всем их разнообразии.

Все правильно, извините, "не доглядел" последнее предложение в
Дмитрий С пишет:
Интересно, что мастер дзэн Банкэй говорил о своей школе как школе "сознания Будды". Мне, кстати, всегда не нравилось это название (да простит меня великий мастер). Мне кажется, в буддизме нет нужды выпячивать сознание в ущерб, скажем, телу. (Где-то у Догэна есть глубокие соображения на этот счет). Не должно быть никакого примата "сознания над материей", так же, как и наоборот. Сознание - это всего лишь одна из скандх.

Психика состоит из 5-ти скандх, а виджняна - лишь одна из них. Если не ошибаюсь - она (виджняна) не может существовать "одна" (проявляется только в комбинациях с другими скандхами или дхармами)

_________________
Безукоризненная вежливость японцев - следствие их многовековой привычки открыто носить два меча
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение Отправить e-mail
ТМ



Зарегистрирован: 05.04.2005
Суждений: 2465

233003СообщениеДобавлено: Ср 18 Фев 15, 20:05 (2 года тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Скандхи есть как с упаданой, так и без. Виджняна бывает и с теми и с другими. Иногда рупа-(упадана) -скандхи нету. В арупа локах. У Будды или архата упаданы быть не может, потому что они её прекратили.
Наверх
Профиль Послать личное сообщение
Тред сейчас никто не читает.
Новая тема   Ответ на тему    Буддийские форумы -> Семинар по абхидхарме Часовой пояс: GMT + 4
Страницы 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  След.
Страница 1 из 8
Быстрый ответ
Имя
Редактирование
Сообщение
 

 
Перейти:  
Вам можно начинать темы
Вам можно отвечать на сообщения
Вам нельзя редактировать свои сообщения
Вам нельзя удалять свои сообщения
Вам нельзя голосовать в опросах
Вы не можете вкладывать файлы
Вы не можете скачивать файлы


Рейтинг@Mail.ru

За информацию, размещённую на сайте пользователями, администрация форума ответственности не несёт.
Мощь пхпББ © 2001, 2002 пхпББ Груп
0.098 (0.463) u0.090 s0.001, 18 0.008 [242/0]