№43962Добавлено: Пн 12 Ноя 07, 05:25 (17 лет тому назад)Атман как принцип обладания
Будда в "змеиной сутре" сказал, чем является Атман - принципом обладания. А обладание приводит лишь к дукха, следовательно и принцип обладания не может быть целью мудрого. _________________ Буддизм чистой воды
№43998Добавлено: Пн 12 Ноя 07, 13:19 (17 лет тому назад)
Он там не определял атмаваду полностью, а лишь привел одно из опровержений, тоесть лишь одну, хоть и достаточную, лакшану. (К примеру, принцип обладания постулируется для кармы - я владелец кармы, карма моя настоящая собственность, единственное чем я владею. А то, что владение приносит страдание карму никак не опровергает.)
Самое лучшее определение атмавады, на мой взгляд, это идеалiзъм (т.е., что разум определяет материю). То доказательство поэтому можно пересмотреть так - что обладание, это разумный фактор, потом он рассматривается и доказывается, что он на самом деле неразумный, следовательно идеализм не верен. Так же подходят доказательства, что произвольные желания не исполняются, дхарма не думает "я дхарма" и т.д. Духкха, значит сознание не определяет, а само подвержено влиянию.
Например из такого идеализма, следует что реальность устроена по идее, и поняв эту идею мы поймём всё. Противоположное, это, что устройство реальности познаётся наблюдением.
№44002Добавлено: Пн 12 Ноя 07, 13:53 (17 лет тому назад)
В качестве материала для обсуждения:
Impermanence and Not-self
22. "You may well take hold of a possession,26 O monks, that is permanent, stable, eternal, immutable, that abides eternally the same in its very condition. (But) do you see, monks, any such possession?" - "No, Lord." - "Well, monks, I, too, do not see any such possession that is permanent, stable, eternal, immutable, that abides eternally the same in its very condition."
23. "You may well accept, monks, the assumption of a self-theory27 from the acceptance of which there would not arise sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief, and despair. (But) do you see, monks, any such assumption of a self-theory?" - "No, Lord." - "Well, monks, I, too, do not see any such assumption of a self-theory from the acceptance of which there would not arise sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair."
24. "You may well rely, monks, on any supporting (argument) for views28 from the reliance on which there would not arise sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair. (But) do you see, monks, any such supporting (argument) for views?" - "No, Lord." - "Well, monks, I, too, do not see any such supporting (argument) for views from the reliance on which there would not arise sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair."29
25. "If there were a self, monks, would there be my self's property?" - "So it is, Lord." - "Or if there is a self's property, would there by my self?" - "So it is, Lord." - "Since in truth and in fact, self and self's property do not obtain, O monks, then this ground for views, 'The universe is the Self. That I shall be after death; permanent, stable, eternal, immutable; eternally the same shall I abide, in that very condition' - is it not, monks, an entirely and perfectly foolish idea?" - "What else should it be, Lord? It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea."30
№44013Добавлено: Пн 12 Ноя 07, 15:30 (17 лет тому назад)
Кстати там 6 основ для ложных взглядов, я их пронумеровал для наглядности.
Цитата:
15. "There are, monks, these six grounds for false views.15 What are the six? There is here, monks, an uninstructed worldling who has no regard for Noble Ones, who is ignorant of their teaching and untrained in it; who has no regard for men of worth, who is ignorant of their teaching and untrained in it:
1) he considers corporeality thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self';16
2) he considers feeling...
3) perception...
4) mental formations thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self';
5) and what is seen, heard, sensed, and thought;17 what is encountered, sought, pursued in mind,18 this also he considers thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self';
6) and also this ground for views (holding): 'The universe is the Self.19 That I shall be after death;20 permanent, stable, eternal, immutable; eternally the same,21 shall I abide in that very condition' ? that (view), too, he considers thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self.'22
Т.е. пять скандх + чистая фантазия. (Отождествления + собственно ditthi.)
№44052Добавлено: Пн 12 Ноя 07, 19:38 (17 лет тому назад)
Ок. Примерное толкование:
Перечислив шесть баз ложных взглядов (ditthi-tthana) (т.е. скандхи+диттхи) идет их обсуждение.
Сначала различаются два вида нереальностей приводящих к беспокойству (paritassati) - танха к внешним (предметам) и танха к внутренним диттхи. (При этом как соотносятся 5 скандх и внешние нереальности, не совсем ясно.) Танха и беспокойство тут синонимы. Танха всегда направлена на то чего нет, поэтому "нереальности".
Цитата:
22. "You may well take hold of a possession,26 O monks, that is permanent, stable, eternal, immutable, that abides eternally the same in its very condition. (But) do you see, monks, any such possession?" - "No, Lord." - "Well, monks, I, too, do not see any such possession that is permanent, stable, eternal, immutable, that abides eternally the same in its very condition."
Нет ничего вечного. Это явно относится к внешним нереальностям.
Цитата:
23. "You may well accept, monks, the assumption of a self-theory27 from the acceptance of which there would not arise sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief, and despair. (But) do you see, monks, any such assumption of a self-theory?" - "No, Lord." - "Well, monks, I, too, do not see any such assumption of a self-theory from the acceptance of which there would not arise sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair."
Схватывание (упадана) "я"-теории всегда приводит к несчастью.
Цитата:
24. "You may well rely, monks, on any supporting (argument) for views28 from the reliance on which there would not arise sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair. (But) do you see, monks, any such supporting (argument) for views?" - "No, Lord." - "Well, monks, I, too, do not see any such supporting (argument) for views from the reliance on which there would not arise sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair."29
Опора (ниссая) на опору для [любой] теории так же приводит к несчастью.
Цитата:
25. "If there were a self, monks, would there be my self's property?" - "So it is, Lord." - "Or if there is a self's property, would there by my self?" - "So it is, Lord." - "Since in truth and in fact, self and self's property do not obtain, O monks, then this ground for views, 'The universe is the Self. That I shall be after death; permanent, stable, eternal, immutable; eternally the same shall I abide, in that very condition' - is it not, monks, an entirely and perfectly foolish idea?" - "What else should it be, Lord? It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea."30
И тут рассматривается соотношение атмана и его характеристик (природы) (attaniya):
еслиб был атман были бы у него характеристики?, еслиб были характеристики атмана можно было бы установить атман?
Но так как они не обнаруживаются и не устанавливаются, то и нет никаких основания для 6й базы диттхи (чистой фантазии).
№44070Добавлено: Вт 13 Ноя 07, 02:15 (17 лет тому назад)
Это все про собственность и обладание.
Цитата:
26. Pariggaha.m parigga.nheyyaatha. This links up with §19: the anxiety about external possessions.
Цитата:
19. "But, Lord, can there be absence of anxiety about unrealities, in the external?"
"There can be, O monk," said the Blessed One. "In that case, monk, someone does not think thus: 'Oh, I had it! That, alas, I have no longer! Oh, may I have it again! But, alas, I do not get it!' Hence he does not grieve, is not depressed, does not lament; he does not beat his breast nor does he weep, and no dejection befalls him. Thus, monk, is there absence of anxiety about unrealities, in the external."
№44077Добавлено: Вт 13 Ноя 07, 02:42 (17 лет тому назад)
Все остальные заимствованные, и могут быть описаны чем-то другим. Владение это свабхава ахамкары, а Атман по сути и есть ахамкарин. _________________ Буддизм чистой воды
№44078Добавлено: Вт 13 Ноя 07, 03:07 (17 лет тому назад)
Кстати цитата из Асанги из AS (9й пост) прямо по Alagaddupama Suttе.
Цитата:
(4) What is the characteristic of non-self (anātma)? It is the non-existence in the aggregates, elements and spheres of the characteristics postulated in the theory of the self (ātmavāda) as a result of the nonexistence of the characteristics of a self in the aggregates, elements and spheres. This is called the characteristic of non-self. For this reason the Blessed One said: ‘All things (dharmas) are without self.’122
Furthermore, the Blessed One has said: “(i) All of that is not mine, (ii) nor ‘I am’ nor my self”.123 What is the meaning of the phrase: ‘Thus should one understand that truly by correct wisdom’?124
(i) The phrase ‘all that is not mine’ is said in reference to outer things. ‘Outer things’ is the characteristic of things belonging to an imaginary self. Hence the extension of the idea to things belonging to a self.
(ii) ‘Inner things’ is the characteristic of an imaginary self and of things belonging to it. Hence the extension of the idea to the self and things belonging to the self.
ps. А есть еще, кроме тройной ("я, моё, моё я") четверная формула. Пример (пометил цифрами в скобках):
sakkāya-ditthi [Cūlavedalla-sutta (M I 299–305):
]How […] does the identity-view come to be? Here […] an untaught ordinary person, who has no regard for the noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in the dhamma,
(1) regards form as self,
(2) or self as possessed of form,
(3) or form as in self,
(4) or self as in form. He regards feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. He regards apperception as self, or self as possessed of apperception, or apperception as in self, or self as in apperception. He regards volitional formations as self, or self as possessed of volitional formations, or volitional formations as in self, or self as in volitional formations. He regards consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness.68
Тут еще необычнее, без "я" но с двумя "в".
Fifteen sassata-ditthi:
1–3. Self as possessed of form, or form as in self, or self as in form (rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā rūpaṃ, rupasmim vā attānaṃ)
4–6. Self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling (vedanāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā vedanaṃ, vedanāya vā attānaṃ)
7–9. Self as possessed of apperception, or apperception as in self, or self as in apperception (saññāvantam vā attānaṃ, attani vā saññaṃ, saññāya vā attānaṃ)
10–12. Self as possessed of volitional formations, or volitional formations as in self, or self as in volitional formations (saṃkhāravantam vā attānaṃ, attani vā saṃkhāre, saṃkhāresu vā attānaṃ)
13–15. Self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness (viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ)
pps. Кстати Фуллер считает, пятая база из Alagaddupamы, это не виджнана скандха.
Последний раз редактировалось: test (Вт 13 Ноя 07, 03:15), всего редактировалось 1 раз
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5 скандх+теизмы(этернализмы)
