Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda о невообразимости, об угасшем огне, и о конечной ниббане.

Максим Фурин · Зарегистрирован: 01.05.2017 Суждений: 798

An extinguished fire goes nowhere. In the case of other arahants, who were cremated after their parinibbàna, there is a left over as ashes for one to perpetuate at least the memory of their existence. But here Venerable Dabba Mallaputta, as if to drive a point home, through his psychic powers based on the fire element, saw to it that neither ashes nor soot will mar his perfect extinguishment in the eyes of the world. That is why the Buddha celebrated it with these special utterances of joy.

So then the cessation of existence is itself Nibbàna. There is no everlasting immortal Nibbàna awaiting the arahants at their parinibbàna.

That kind of argument the commentaries sometimes put forward is now and then advanced by modern day writers and preachers, too, in their explanations. When it comes to Nibbàna, they resort to two pet parables of recent origin, the parable of the tortoise and the parable of the frog. In the former, a tortoise goes down into the water and the fishes ask him where he came from. The tortoise replies that he came from land. In order to determine what sort of a thing land is, the fishes go on asking the tortoise a number of questions based on various qualities of water. To each question the tortoise has to reply in the negative, since land has none of the qualities of water. The parable of the frog is much the same. When it gets into water it has to say `no no' to every question put by the toad, still unfamiliar with land. To make the parables convincing, those negative answers, the `no-nos', are compared to the strings of negative terms that are found in the sutta passages dealing with the arahattaphalasamàdhi, which we have already quoted. For instance, to prove their point those writers and teachers would resort to the famous Udàna passage beginning with:
There is, monks, that sphere, in which there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor air; neither the sphere of infinite space, nor the sphere of infinite consciousness, nor the sphere of nothingness, nor the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor the world beyond, nor the sun and the moon ...".
But we have reasonably pointed out that those passages do not in any way refer to a non-descript realm into which the arahants enter after their demise, a realm that the tortoise and the frog cannot describe. Such facile explanations contradict the deeper teachings on the cessation of existence, dependent arising and not self. They create a lot of misconceptions regarding Nibbàna as the ultimate aim.

The purpose of all those arguments is to assert that Nibbàna is definitely not an annihilation. The ideal of an everlasting Nibbàna is held out in order to obviate nihilistic notions. But the Buddha himself has declared that when he is preaching about the cessation of existence, those who held on to eternalist views wrongly accused him for being an annihilationist, who teaches about the annihilation, destruction and nonexistence of a truly existing being.
On such occasions, the Buddha did not in any way incline towards eternalism in order to defend himself. He did not put forward the idea of an everlasting Nibbàna to counter the accusation. Instead, he drew attention to the three signata and the four noble truths and solved the whole problem. He maintained that the charge is groundless and utterly misconceived, and concluded with the memorable declaration: "formerly as well as now, I point out only a suffering and a cessation of that suffering". Even the term tathàgata, according to him, is not to be conceived as a self. It is only a mass of suffering that has come down through samsàra, due to ignorance. The so-called existence, bhava, is an outcome of grasping, upàdàna. When grasping ceases, existence comes to an end. That itself is the cessation of existence, bhavanirodha, which is Nibbàna.
As the term anupàdà parinibbàna suggests, there is no grasping in the experience of the cessation of existence. It is only when one is grasping something that he can be identified with it, or reckoned by it. When one lets go of everything, he goes beyond reckoning. Of course, even the commentaries sometimes use the expression, "gone to the state beyond designation" with regard to the parinibbàna of arahants.

Nevertheless, they tacitly grant a destination, which in their opinion defies definition. Such vague arguments are riddled with contradictions. They obfuscate the deeper issues of the Dhamma, relating to pañicca samuppàda and anattà, and seek to perpetuate personality view by slanting towards eternalism.

Источник стр. 419-421
Было бы хорошо если бы кто-то с ровными руками перевёл отрывок. Думаю будет полезно. Можно захватить и то что там выше по тексту, для более цельной картины.

Махаси Саядо · Гость

[1] Новая жизнь не возникнет и с абсолютным исчезновением становления будет достигнут вечный покой. Такой блаженный этап называется «прекращением без остатка» (anupādisesanibbāna). Мудрец, который освободился от жажды, до смерти остается в блаженном состоянии, известном как «прекращение с остатком (sa-upādisesanibbāna)» что означает уничтожение всего, кроме пяти совокупностей. [2] блаженство ниббаны превосходит блаженство Пути и Плода. [3] Только Арахант после париниббаны избавляется от всех тягот, как физических, так и умственных, навсегда. Вот почему мы должны следовать этой практике, ведущей к наслаждению вечным покоем.

[1] No new existence will come into being and with the absolute extinction of becoming eternal peace will be gained. Such a blissful stage is called “cessation without remainder (anupādisesanibbāna). A sage who is freed from craving before death remains in a blissful state known as “cessation with remainder (sa-upādisesanibbāna)” which means annihilation of everything except the five aggregates. http://www.aimwell.org/purabheda.html

[2] the bliss of nibbāna is better than the bliss of the Path and its Fruition http://www.aimwell.org/natureofnibbana.html

[3] Only the Arahant after parinibbāna leaves behind all suffering, both physical and mental, for all time. That is why we must follow this practice to enjoy eternal peace. http://www.aimwell.org/abroad.html

Bhikku K. Nanananda · Гость

Of course, even the commentaries sometimes use the expression, "gone to the state beyond designation" with regard to the parinibbàna of arahants.
333

The commentary to the Udana, Paramatthadipani, gives a strange interpretation to this verse. It interprets the verse as a description of the destination of the arahant Bahiya Daruciriya after he attained Parinibbana, the place he went to.20 Even the term Nibbanagati is used in that connection, the ‘place’ one goes to in attaining Parinibbana. That place, according to the commentary, is not easily understood by worldlings. Its characteristics are said to be the following: The four elements, earth, water, fire and air, are not there. No sun, or moon, or stars are there. The reason why the four elements are negated is supposed to be the fact that there is nothing that is compounded in the uncompounded Nibbana element, into which the arahant passes away.

Максим Фурин · Зарегистрирован: 01.05.2017 Суждений: 798

Чё сказать то хотел? Опять цитируешь что-то думая что это какие-то то твои фантазии подтверждает? В приведенном мной отрывке почти слово в слово повторяется все то, что вам уже было сказано. Будешь и дальше Германна косплеить?

Тренер · Зарегистрирован: 06.03.2018 Суждений: 1796

Of course, even the commentaries sometimes use the expression, "gone to the state beyond designation" with regard to the parinibbàna of arahants.
333

The commentary to the Udana, Paramatthadipani, gives a strange interpretation to this verse. It interprets the verse as a description of the destination of the arahant Bahiya Daruciriya after he attained Parinibbana, the place he went to.20 Even the term Nibbanagati is used in that connection, the ‘place’ one goes to in attaining Parinibbana. That place, according to the commentary, is not easily understood by worldlings. Its characteristics are said to be the following: The four elements, earth, water, fire and air, are not there. No sun, or moon, or stars are there. The reason why the four elements are negated is supposed to be the fact that there is nothing that is compounded in the uncompounded Nibbana element, into which the arahant passes away.