Буддийские форумы Дхарма
Буддийское сообщество
 FAQFAQ   ПоискПоиск   ПользователиПользователи  ГруппыГруппы   КалендарьКалендарь   PeгиcтрaцияPeгиcтрaция 
 ПрофильПрофиль   Войти и проверить личные сообщенияВойти и проверить личные сообщения   ВхoдВхoд 
 Новые постыНовые посты   За сегодняЗа сегодня   За неделюЗа неделю 
В этом разделе: За сегодняЗа сегодня   За неделюЗа неделю   За месяцЗа месяц 

Нагарджуна: о бесполезности раздумий

Страницы Пред.  1, 2
Новая тема   Ответ на тему    Буддийские форумы -> Семинар по мадхьямаке
Предыдущая :: Следующая тема  
Автор Сообщение

Зарегистрирован: 05.04.2005
Суждений: 9883

47040СообщениеДобавлено: Вт 15 Янв 08, 05:55 (15 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

The person who thinks about emptiness
Is not a practitioner of the Path.
Dharmas do not arise and they do not perish:
Being momentary (kṣaṇika), they lose their nature.

Always thinking about the eternally empty,
A person does not follow the Path.
He invents imaginary characteristics
For dharmas that are without birth or cessation.

Второе - думающий о вечно пустом (мирском), как отметил test, а первое, если это не неточность перевода, может быть и каким-нибудь воображением, схоластическим рассуждением.... В конце страницы 846 начинается небольшой диалог обо всяких ошибках, там есть в сносках и такое:

The grasping of characteristics (nimittodgrahaṇa) is the attribute of perception (by trying to imagine emptiness,
the nihilist hypostatizes it. The Śūnyavādin knows emptiness but does not imagine it.

Śūnyatāśūnyatāsamādhi is the absorption by means of which one is protected from the dangers of the absorption
that has emptiness as object: cf. Kośa,p. 184, 188.

Исходное слово первой цитаты неясно, все таки.

test пишет:
Неверно соотносить эту цитату с четвёртой, так как там речь идет о степенях практики пути - памятование, изучение, верное знание.

Все же, я эти цитаты привел как возражение на подход, обозначенный мною в 11 посте. Не дождался, пока спадут эмоции от столь приятной находки  Confused
Профиль Послать личное сообщение

Зарегистрирован: 05.04.2005
Суждений: 9883

47041СообщениеДобавлено: Вт 15 Янв 08, 06:37 (15 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Ого... Shocked  я аж с кресла сполз... Совершенно не в тему, но не могу не запостить...

Furthermore, by means of the three concentrations of emptiness (śūnyatāsamādhi), the yogin considers (anupaśyati) the emptiness of the five aggregates (skandha), obtains the eightfold noble path (āryāṣṭāṅgamārga), destroys the passions (kleśa) and obtains nirvāṇa with residue of conditioning (sopadhiśeṣanirvāṇa). Then, as a result of the karmic causes and conditions of his previous lifetimes (pūrvajanman), the yogin, at the dissolution of the body after [288a] death (kāyasya bhedāt paraṃ maraṇāt) abandons the eightfold path444 and produces a concentration of emptiness of emptinesses (śūnyatāśūnyatāsamādhi) called emptiness of emptinesses.

444 Śūnyatāsamādhi provokes disgust for saṃsāra; śūnyatāśūnayatāsamādhi which follows it involves disgust for
the dharmas of the Path. By means of the knowledge and vision of deliverance (vimuktijñānadarśana), the ascetic
knows that the path of cessation of suffering practiced by him no longer need be practiced (mārgo me bhāvito na
punar bhavitavyaḥ)
Профиль Послать личное сообщение

Зарегистрирован: 17.02.2005
Суждений: 44330

47042СообщениеДобавлено: Вт 15 Янв 08, 09:55 (15 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Похоже на пару пратисамкхьяниродха\апратисамкхьяниродха, только вместо просто самкхьи\випашьяны скандх, сосредоточение на их шуньятности.
Буддизм чистой воды
Профиль Послать личное сообщение Сайт автора

Зарегистрирован: 06.01.2006
Суждений: 1050

47045СообщениеДобавлено: Вт 15 Янв 08, 11:42 (15 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

есть же Sam и Нагарджуна с мануалом сиящим смотрящим с неба на нас

открывашки для консервов (С) эти ваши концепции

луна как никогда подмигивала шаловливой изюминкой искристси зодиакальныъх аналов волн центробежной Жуны
Профиль Послать личное сообщение
Ph.D., D.Sc.

Зарегистрирован: 03.03.2005
Суждений: 1039

47058СообщениеДобавлено: Вт 15 Янв 08, 14:32 (15 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Анусмрити - это все-таки рефлексия и в качестве таковой является методологической опорой как сампраджнята- так и асампраджнята-йоги, т.е. как дискурсивной медитации (требующей витарки, вичары, ананды и асмиты), так и недискурсивной медитации, которая основана на принципе нети-нети - забань эту витарку, как только она появится, забань эту вичару, как только она повятися, забань эту ананду, как только она появится, и забань эту самоидентификацию, как только она возникнет в сознании.

Анусмрити - это анубхавана в смысле непосредственного постижения собственной формы (или безформенности) объекта медитации, особый тип "мнемической онтокогниции" (смрити-бхавана). Одним словом, гносис (джняна по смыслу праджня).
Профиль Послать личное сообщение Сайт автора

Зарегистрирован: 12.12.2006
Суждений: 181

47060СообщениеДобавлено: Вт 15 Янв 08, 14:52 (15 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Patrul Rinpoche

Advice from Me to Myself

Vajrasattva, sole deity, Master,
You sit on a full-moon lotus-cushion of white light
In the hundred-petalled full bloom of youth.

Think of me, Vajrasattva,
You who remain unmoved within the manifest display
That is Mahamudra, pure bliss-emptiness.

Listen up, old bad-karma Patrul,
You dweller-in-distraction.

For ages now you've been
Beguiled, entranced, and fooled by appearances.
Are you aware of that? Are you?
Right this very instant, when you're
Under the spell of mistaken perception
You've got to watch out.
Don't let yourself get carried away by this fake and empty life.

Your mind is spinning around
About carrying out a lot of useless projects:
It's a waste! Give it up!
Thinking about the hundred plans you want to accomplish,
With never enough time to finish them,
Just weighs down your mind.
You're completely distracted
By all these projects, which never come to an end,
But keep spreading out more, like ripples in water.
Don't be a fool: for once, just sit tight.

Listening to the teachings—you've already heard hundreds of teachings,
But when you haven't grasped the meaning of even one teaching,
What's the point of more listening?

Reflecting on the teachings—even though you've listened,
If the teachings aren't coming to mind when needed,
What's the point of more reflection? None.

Meditating according to the teachings—
If your meditation practice still isn't curing
The obscuring states of mind—forget about it!

You've added up just how many mantras you've done—
But you aren't accomplishing the kyerim visualizatiion.
You may get the forms of deities nice and clear—
But you're not putting an end to subject and object.
You may tame what appear to be evil spirits and ghosts,
But you're not training the stream of your own mind.

Your four fine sessions of sadhana practice,
So meticulously arranged—
Forget about them.

When you're in a good mood,
Your practice seems to have lots of clarity—
But you just can't relax into it.
When you're depressed,
Your practice is stable enough
But there's no brilliance to it.
As for awareness,
You try to force yourself into a rigpa-like state,
As if stabbing a stake into a target!

When those yogic positions and gazes keep your mind stable
Only by keeping mind tethered—
Forget about them!

Giving high-sounding lectures
Doesn't do your mind-stream any good.
The path of analytical reasoning is precise and acute—
But it's just more delusion, good for nothing goat-shit.
The oral instructions are very profound
But not if you don't put them into practice.

Reading over and over those dharma texts
That just occupy your mind and make your eyes sore—
Forget about it!

You beat your little damaru drum—ting, ting—
And your audience thinks it's charming to hear.
You're reciting words about offering up your body,
But you still haven't stopped holding it dear.
You're making your little cymbals go cling, cling—
Without keeping the ultimate purpose in mind.

All this dharma-practice equipment
That seems so attractive—
Forget about it!

Right now, those students are all studying so very hard,
But in the end, they can't keep it up.

Today, they seem to get the idea,
But later on, there's not a trace left.
Even if one of them manages to learn a little,
He rarely applies his "learning" to his own conduct.

Those elegant dharma disciples—
Forget about them!

This year, he really cares about you,
Next year, it's not like that.
At first, he seems modest,
Then he grows exalted and pompous.
The more you nurture and cherish him,
The more distant he grows.

These dear friends
Who show such smiling faces to begin with—
Forget about them!

Her smile seems so full of joy—
But who knows if that's really the case?
One time, it's pure pleasure,
Then it's nine months of mental pain.
It might be fine for a month,
But sooner or later, there's trouble.

People teasing; your mind embroiled—
Your lady-friend—
Forget about her!

These endless rounds of conversation
Are just attachment and aversion—
It's just more goat-shit, good for nothing at all.
At the time it seems marvellously entertaining,
But really, you're just spreading around stories about other people's mistakes.
Your audience seems to be listening politely,
But then they grow embarrassed for you.

Useless talk that just make you thirsty—
Forget about it!

Giving teachings on meditation texts
Without yourself having
Gained actual experience through practice,
Is like reciting a dance-manual out loud
And thinking that's the same as actually dancing.

People may be listening to you with devotion,
But it just isn't the real thing.

Sooner or later, when your own actions
Contradict the teachings, you'll feel ashamed.

Just mouthing the words,
Giving dharma explanations that sound so eloquent—
Forget about it!

When you don't have a text, you long for it;
Then when you've finally gotten it, you hardly look at it.

The number of pages seems few enough,
But it's a bit hard to find time to copy them all.
Even if you copied down all the dharma texts on earth,
You wouldn't be satisfied.

Copying down texts is a waste of time
(Unless you get paid)—
So forget about it!

Today, they're happy as clams—
Tomorrow, they're furious.
With all their black moods and white moods,
People are never satisfied.
Or even if they're nice enough,
They may not come through when you really need them,
Disappointing you even more.

All this politeness, keeping up a
Courteous demeanor—
Forget about it!

Worldly and religious work
Is the province of gentlemen.
Patrul, old boy—that's not for you.

Haven't you noticed what always happens?
An old bull, once you've gone to the trouble of borrowing him for his services,
Seems to have absolutely no desire left in him at all—
(Except to go back to sleep).

Be like that—desireless.

Just sleep, eat, piss, shit.
There's nothing else in life that has to be done.

Don't get involved with other things:
They're not the point.

Keep a low profile,

In the triple universe
When you're lower than your company
You should take the low seat.

Should you happen to be the superior one,
Don't get arrogant.

There's no absolute need to have close friends;
You're better off just keeping to yourself.

When you're without any worldly or religious obligations,
Don't keep on longing to acquire some!

If you let go of everything—
Everything, everything—
That's the real point!

This advice was written by the practitioner Trime Lodro (Patrul Rinpoche) for his intimate friend Ahu Shri (Patrul Rinpoche), in order to give advice that is tailored exactly to his capacities.

This advice should be put into practice.

Even though you don't know how to practice, just let go of everything—that's what I really want to say. Even though you aren't able to succeed in your dharma practice. don't get angry.

May it be virtuous.

Patrul Rinpoche (1808-1887) was the wandering turn-of-the-century Dzogchen master of Eastern Tibet, beloved by the people. He was renowned as the enlightened vagabond.

Translation by Constance Wilkinson

Many questions about the text were clarified according to the extremely kind explanations of the Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, during his stay in New York City, and according to the detailed explanations of Khenpo, Rigdzin Dorje of the Nyingmapa Shedra, Bansbari, Kathmandu, Nepal.

Thanks to Matthieu Ricard of Shechen Tennyi Dargyeling, and to Anne Burchardi of the Marpa institute of Translation for their advice toward trying to make this translation faithful to both the letter and spirit of the original Tibetan.

All errors and misunderstandings are those of the translator. May this poem, despite all shortcomings of its translation, serve to benefit beings.

Sarva Mangalam.
Профиль Послать личное сообщение

Откуда: Riga

48104СообщениеДобавлено: Пт 15 Фев 08, 22:37 (15 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Зачем подражаешь кому-то (мой ум)?
Ты познал пустоту,
Узнал: так возникают видимости
Войди в щель (между мирами).

Зарегистрирован: 12.03.2005
Суждений: 4540

48121СообщениеДобавлено: Сб 16 Фев 08, 08:48 (15 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Войди в щель (между мирами).
Так это тоже мир.  Very Happy
Профиль Послать личное сообщение
Karma Dorje

Зарегистрирован: 20.12.2007
Суждений: 350
Откуда: Tuva or Bust

51605СообщениеДобавлено: Вс 04 Май 08, 16:50 (14 лет тому назад)     Ответ с цитатой

Думать думать размышлять можно ск-ко угодно, при этом ничего не делая. По моему нужно не думать (теоретизировать, строить концепции, сложные умопостроения, и пр), а делать, например Нендро, делать как это делают все Бодхистатвы, как это делают Ламы Ринпоче, как это делают Кармапы - просто делать...
Профиль Послать личное сообщение

Зарегистрирован: 21.08.2009
Суждений: 121

69169СообщениеДобавлено: Ср 02 Сен 09, 23:29 (13 лет тому назад)    Бодхисатва Ответ с цитатой

Пустота это легко.Попробуй любить в аду. Chant   тема Бодхисатва Rolling Eyes
Профиль Послать личное сообщение Отправить e-mail
Тред сейчас никто не читает.
Новая тема   Ответ на тему    Буддийские форумы -> Семинар по мадхьямаке Часовой пояс: GMT + 4
Страницы Пред.  1, 2
Страница 2 из 2

Вам нельзя начинать темы
Вам нельзя отвечать на сообщения
Вам нельзя редактировать свои сообщения
Вам нельзя удалять свои сообщения
Вам нельзя голосовать в опросах
Вы не можете вкладывать файлы
Вы можете скачивать файлы


За информацию, размещённую на сайте пользователями, администрация форума ответственности не несёт.
Мощь пхпББ © 2001, 2002 пхпББ Груп
0.023 (0.345) u0.014 s0.001, 18 0.008 [247/0]